Amps and Moddage

Yes, it's true, not all guitars are acoustics; some have single coils and some have buckers, and all of those have some serious electrons. Build 'em, work on 'em, mods, questions, Put 'em here!
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Eben
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Amps and Moddage

Post by Eben » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:20 pm

OK, well, since we're starting to talk a bit of electriceze, we gotta remember that without an amp, an electric is just a real quiet guitar...

Now if you don't play electric, you probably don't know that a LOT of players who do are easily as obsessive about amps as they are guitars;
many in fact have a veritable quiver of both!

Of players who are serious devotees and/or are using them professionally, there are generally two schools; those who collect and trade and buy and sell amps like they do guitars, and who keep a raft of the buggers around, and those who are looking for The One Perfect Holy Grail Amp That Will Do What They Need. I fall into the latter group. I've been through the days where I had amps like golf clubs, and damn near needed a caddy to manage things; "Looks like a rock gig, boss, better go with the Marshall stack!" Then I grew tired of hauling big freaking amps hither and thither and began seeking The One.

Within that search, I've gone from 60 watts, to 40 to 15: The places I play might fit 100 folks if you really squeezed 'em in, but 50 to 80 is more typical; in a space like that, 15 watts is plenty to be heard and heard well, even over a full band, and besides, if it ever get's down to it, you can mic the little bugger and feed it into the house, so...

Anyway, among amp officianados, you will find that we tend to screw with our amps almost as much as we do our guitars. In an amp, you have readily accessible fodder for modding, namely speakers and, if you're an all tube guy like I am, tubes!

Fact is, your amp is gonna color your sound damn near as much as your axe does; if you think of the amp as the primary expression tool for the guitar, then you want to make sure it is coloring your sound pallet the way you want it colored, and believe you me when I say that changing speakers or tubes can make a HUGE difference.

Currently, I play a Crate Palomino V16, which is a made in the USA, hand wired, Class A amp that was Crate's first serious attempt into making something to compete with the boutique crowd. It's a very nice little amp, and even though it's 15 watts, it will surprise you how loud it can be, even staying very clean.

It came stock with an Eminence 12" speaker, which is a good name brand, but all they tell you is that it is an Eminence "Specially voiced" for this amp, which means nothing to me from a technical standpoint: This is like saying, "The guitar is a Fender;" that's great, but are we talkin' Strat or Tele, or Jazzmaster, or Jaguar, or what?! Furthermore, on digging into it, I find it is a speaker rated for 50 watts, 75 peak - Now if you're putting out 15 watts, it might occur to you that this is not, in fact, the optimum speaker for this amp. Also, not knowing it's specific pedigree, I have no idea if it is built and voiced for what I want, which is predominantly blues with some rock and country-rock thrown in. We'll get into this more down the line, but suffice it so say that you can pick speakers like you do guitars or wine, "Fruity with a tinge of Angus Young...."

:lol:

In the tube department, it came stock with Groove Tubes, which are a very good brand, but they're not my brand: Here again, you can equate this to saying, "But it's a Martin acoustic!" And that may be true, but if Gibsons are what float my boat, that might not be what I want to hear... I am more of an Electro-Harmonix guy when it comes to tone, so although the tubes are good, (This amp uses two EL84s for power tubes and three AX7As in the pre-amp phase - And fear not, IF you're into it, we'll go into tube stuff in as much detail as you could possibly want down the line), they are ripe for replacement in my book. We'll launch deeper into this down the line too.

So, in this thread I'll be going through what I do to research, decide and modify my amp, but it also might be a nice place for others who are hip to the cause to join in and tell us what they do, 'K?

E
‘I love America - I just dont know how to get there anymore.’

John Prine

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Dennis Leahy
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Re: Amps and Moddage

Post by Dennis Leahy » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:51 pm

Can you (y'all: E and those to come) include observations on acoustic amps as well, or if this be an entirely different beast, then maybe someone(s) who know acoustic amps can start a thread for that. For example, Carla has done lots of homework on acoustic amps...

Dennis
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Re: Amps and Moddage

Post by Vinman » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:38 pm

Hey Eben, great topic. I've been through many amps over the years, Peavey, Ampeg, Marshall, Roland and Fender. I'm done being an amp collector. I have two amps now, a 100W Marshall Combo that I bought in 1979 or 1980, and a Carvin slant top half stack with their 100W MTS 3200 anniversary edition head. Without a doubt, THE ONE is definitely my 100W Marshall Combo. It has 6550 power tubes that are rated for 200W. They are the same tubes that were used in some of the older 200W Marshall Major heads. Recently, I had to have one of the speakers re-coned and decided to replace the power tubes as well since they've taken a beating over the years. I ended up putting in 4 bias matched Tung-Sol tubes and man does this amp sing. If you had your eyes closed, you would swear you were listening to a full stack.

As far as amps go, I am a purist. Give me tubes, or give me death!

Vince

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Re: Amps and Moddage

Post by BaldEagle55 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:56 pm

Last year, my family was nice enough to buy me a new amp for my birthday and a sweet one it is.

Image

It is a Fender Woody Pro Junior with the following specs:
all tube 15 watt combo guitar amplifier
* single 10" Jensen 8 ohm speaker
* two EL84 power tubes
* two 12AX7 preamp tubes
* solid state rectifier
* 22 pounds overall weight
* custom retro-style lacquered ash wood cabinet
* vintage red grill cloth with chrome protector strips
* commemorative badge
* vintage-style amp cover

I love the sound of this especially the sound of a harp.

I know little about amplifiers and am looking forward to learning as you do your work Eben.

Tom
:D :D :D

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Eben
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Re: Amps and Moddage

Post by Eben » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:41 pm

I warned y'all...

Yeah, D, we can cover acoustic amps too – They are predominantly solid state, (There are exceptions, the Rivera Sedona comes to mind), so there’s less to tweak for us common folks, but they’re still good fodder for discussion!

OK, let’s start with way basics: What does an amp do? Fundamentally, it takes a very weak, low power signal and jacks it up to everything from nice and clean to Zack Wylde and everything in between. Your electric guitar takes vibrational energy from the strings and translates that to an electric signal by way of your pickups. The current within your guitar is very small for obvious reasons, (A guy fries quick, struck by lightning), while the current within your amp can be and is quite high indeed, in fact lethally so; safely taking that electrical value from A to B is really the amps biggest chore.
The next question that usually comes along is, “OK, so why are there different amps for acoustics versus electrics, keyboards, etc? Well, in a nutshell, yes amps make the signal louder, but they also have to account for what range and combination of frequencies the instrument needs to have reproduced. Whereas an electric guitar amp needs to account for further sound shaping, (Effects, distortion, etc), an acoustic guitar amp is designed with keeping the signal as faithful to the original as possible.

So, how do they do it? There are three basic components to an amp; the pre amp, the power amp, and the speaker. Nowadays, a lot of amps have built in effects, which just means another sound shaping layer is added to the signal chain. Other than these, you have controls that allow you to tweak the various aspects of your amp, and a cabinet to house everything – really, it’s that simple. In very simple terms, the signal from your axe is gonna enter the amp through a cable, then hit the pre amp, then the power amp, and then the speaker, and if you have onboard effects, like reverb for example, the signal’ll hit that right after it passes through the pre amp phase.

So, on to the components, and again, we’re keeping this simple and brief. The pre amp is there fundamentally to juice the raw signal out of your axe; again, what comes down the cord from your Strat is a tiny, weak signal, so much so that you just can’t pass it to a power amp and expect stuff to happen: This section is very important in the tone shaping world too, though, because it is here that things like specific kinds, brands or derivations of tubes will have tremendous impact on your sound. Remember I mentioned my amp uses 12AX7s in the pre amp phase? Those are pretty legendary; loved by some, disdained by others. Seriously, when you get into tube jargon, it really does start to sound like you’re at a wine tasting; “Warm syrupy mids with sparkling highs,” and stuff like that… The amount of air in the tube, the type and size of plates used, all of this will impart different tone characteristics that you may or may not want.

Onward! Once that signal is boosted by the pre amp phase, it’ll go through any onboard effects, (And let’s face it, even rudimentary amps usually have at least a reverb section, and that is in fact an effect!) Once it’s through there, it’s on to the power amp which is where all your good clean and dirty fun comes from.

Now, amps are generally split into solid state and tube categories, but truth be told, there are quite a few out there that really are hybrids of the two. In any case, you hear guys like Dennis and Vince and me who are tube only guys; so why and what are the fundamental differences? Well, at the most basic level, a tube amp uses vacuum tubes, (AKA dinosaur technology), to amplify the signal we’ve been discussing, while solid state uses diodes, transistors and other little naught bits to achieve the same end. One thing that occurs to a lot of folks at this point is the thought, “Well, if they do the same thing, then why are folks so fired up about one or the other?” and therein lies the rub; while things should be the same, they ain’t and that’s why folks are drawn to one camp or another. I saw a show the other night about the largest record pressing plant in L.A. They had gone from big highs in the 60s to serious lows in the 80s and 90s to…. Now they are pressing as much or more than they did in their heyday; why? ‘cause some folks dig that sound, and CDs just don’t cut it. It’s why Jackson Browne’s studio has legendary tube effects and not computer based stuff – They sound different, and for some of us, that difference is what we’re after. It is a general truism that solid state can and are made lighter than tube amps. The same can be said of power output versus use, in other words, a 15 watt tube amp probably sounds as loud as a 30 watt solid state without going overboard; just another one of the subtle but important differences.

The hybrid amps are simply a derivation of these two; a lot of them will employ tube pre amp sections and solid state power amps. Most do that because the predominant tone shaping is done in the pre amp phase, and because solid state power amps are cheaper, tougher, and again, often lighter than their tube brethren. There really is not a ton of difference between a solid state and a tube power amp section, but I am here to tell you that one can hear the difference. I can’t tell you exactly why I sold my Tech 21 Trademark 60, (A very nice semi-boutique solid state amp), but I’d say that while the clean was clean and the dirty was dirty, it sounded like it was the diet version of what I was after; pretty much there, but not leaving the right taste in my mouth… Nowadays, tube emulation circuitry is all the rage, but once again, you don’t need to be a complete purist or tone snob to be able to tell the difference; when real versus emulation is pointed out to you, it’s obvious as all get out!

Within tube amps, you’ll hear terms thrown around like Class A, Class B and Class AB. Without drawing diagrams with little squiggly things on them, in general, things work this way.

Class A amps mean that generally, they are always putting out a fair bit of juice; the hip term is that they have large quiescent current, meaning the current level in the thing when it is producing no output. You’ll hear folks refer to Class A amps as running “Wide open, pedal to the metal, etc,” and that’s why. Class A amps vary that big ol’ quiescent current to create a varying current and load, and as such, they ain’t exactly what you’d call paragons of efficiency.
Class B differs fundamentally by changing that quiescent current (AKA the bias level), so that they are not effectively running flat out all the time. While this arrangement brings advantages in terms of efficiency, it all so brings more challenges! In a Class B amp, the tube inputs are linked by pairs of diodes. The problem is that we’ve brought a new pair of things into the mix, and differences therein can cause unwanted reactions. ‘Bias’ as we use it here refers to the nature of the current flow around and through your amp; it therefore makes sense that if the bias is maladjusted or not to your liking, the sound you get won’t be what you want. “Adjusting the bias” basically means setting the idling current in the power tubes, and then doing so for the surrounding voltage conditions when one can do that. At issue is the fact that all tubes are different, and especially brand to brand and over time. Some amps have circuits to do this automatically, and they work OK, but nothing’s perfect, of course. Some have bias controls, (Certain Fender Twins come to mind), and that might be giving more leeway than intelligence dictates, ‘cause after all we’re talkin’ about guitar players here, right? What all this means is that Class B is not necessarily a better mouse trap; if all we were after was a more efficient amp, then yes, all is groovy, but practically speaking, to really drive these bad boys, voltage drops across them diodes needs to be exactly the same, and if it ain’t, welcome to “Crossover distortion: Y'all know as well as I do that this ain’t ever gonna happen. Last but not least, Class B requires a significantly greater input signal and the output current is only gonna be about half the waveform, so we got another exercise in compromise!

Class AB lies somewhere between these two examples, and again, while fixing some things adds others – There just ain’t no free lunch.

Well, as Clint Eastwood says when he directs, that’s about enough of that; for now!

E
‘I love America - I just dont know how to get there anymore.’

John Prine

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Re: Amps and Moddage

Post by Vinman » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:39 pm

Eben wrote: There really is not a ton of difference between a solid state and a tube power amp section, but I am here to tell you that one can hear the difference. I can’t tell you exactly why I sold my Tech 21 Trademark 60, (A very nice semi-boutique solid state amp), but I’d say that while the clean was clean and the dirty was dirty, it sounded like it was the diet version of what I was after; pretty much there, but not leaving the right taste in my mouth… Nowadays, tube emulation circuitry is all the rage, but once again, you don’t need to be a complete purist or tone snob to be able to tell the difference; when real versus emulation is pointed out to you, it’s obvious as all get out! E
It's the PRESENCE! You can feel the tubes on the inside, especially on the low end. Solid state feels harsh and pushy, almost artificial.

Vince

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Re: Amps and Moddage

Post by Eben » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:03 pm

It's like that guy from the Dixie Hummingbirds says at the beginning of 'Love Me Like A Rock':

Ummm Humm, Ummm Hmm - That's that, that's that groove....

E
‘I love America - I just dont know how to get there anymore.’

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Re: Amps and Moddage

Post by manitou » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:09 am

I think the difference is like listening to Led Zepplin on vinyl and then the digitally remastered version on CD. I could only stand to listen to half of it, not pretty. E keep writing i'm listening.
Has anyone here ever built a Dynakit or from scratch? I (or my son) have found the need for a small (15w) tube amp for acoustic play. He's using one I built using a 60/60 Peavey but it's too loud and to heavy to haul around. It's the one I've brought to the gathering. We have an idea and would need to be a small chassis. Mark

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