Ladder Braced Grand Concert, Build #7

[Joe Sustaire]

Thanks for taking the time to review and critique guys, I do appreciate it.

Having just had an under-bracing experience I probably am veering now toward over-bracing. Time will tell, at least this way I can always go in thru the sound-hole and shave it down later. Easier than adding bracing thru the sound-hole. Experience is all mine to gain!

Dave I appreciate you taking the time to add some pics of your ladder bracing, there is something of a dearth of info around on these, so I value your input.

And Dennis, no I don't necessarily just want the opinions of those that "know", I was mainly interested in the opinions of those that agree with me and would tell me how "wonderful" I am!

Thanks again guys,
Joe

[Dennis Leahy]

...And Dennis, no I don't necessarily just want the opinions of those that "know", I was mainly interested in the opinions of those that agree with me and would tell me how "wonderful" I am!

Joe

Well, then for what it's worth, I think you're pretty damn wonderful!

Dennis

[Joe Sustaire]

Why thank you Dennis!!! I needed that.

I must say, I can tell by your last post, you're a highly intelligent human being, and a sterling judge of character!!!


Joe

[Joe Sustaire]

Hey guys, I want to thank everyone for their review of my bracing. The general consensus is that I overbraced. Besides the ones that posted, I also had a pm review by Nehemiah Covey, and he agreed, and offered some suggestions also. So, looking and tapping and flexing, I feel you're right.

I also read a very helpful post by Dave White in another thread, where he stated-

"As for soundboards distorting, all great sounding guitars have this feature imho. The balance or knife edge you sit on is between sound and playability/stability. If it is deformed and stable and the playability is good then what's the problem?"

This was very helpful to me. As I mentioned before, I just finished a ladder braced Ditson, thin top, minimal bracing and their is some potato chip deformation in the top, but the sound and playability is fantastic, best I've built yet. But because of the deformation, I thought I had screwed up. So far it appears to be stable, is holding in tune, and the deformation is minimal, so hurrah, I have left it alone and am just playing it and watching it closely. But because of this I believe I did overbrace this top.

So now I have been carving and sanding away.


Here is where the top was, with the ladders a smidge over 3/4" tall.


And here is where it is now, with the ladders about 1/2" tall and the linear bracing carved as best I could.

So I think it looks much more in line with what I want, and more importantly it is much more vibrant and alive when tapped, gives a nice shimmering vibrational tone. Me happy!

So thanks again for the reviews. And this is something I am learning from Ed Powells threads, when you're unsure, ask for help. This is a great forum and some great help is available!

Joe

[Nehemiah C]

Hey Joe:

That is looking really nice, amazing what a little shaving will do isn't it?

You know when I first read this post, I felt honored that you would mention my bracing style and not just that, but incorporate it too.

I have a little one (the one I sent pics of) that will be ready for posting it's build soon, and it is coming along pretty nicely, but I have to say the cleanliness of your work and detail is superb. I sure hope you get the sound out of her that you want. I see that you reduced the popsicle brace and fluted for the truss rod, it really looks like a different top altogether. Nice work. I would say we should be done about the same time, but by the looks of it you'll be playing while I'm fretting.

[Eben]

Again, one of my favorite quotes by a fantastic builder:

"All the great guitars are on the verge of imploding"
John Greven.

[Hesh]

Hey Joe (BTW Hey Joe is on my all time favorite 5 songs list...) your geetar is looking great!

I too find the difference after shaving those braces looking much better. Be sure to write something profound on the inside of the top prior to attaching to the rim.

Nice work!

[Joe Sustaire]

Thanks for the comments guys! And thank you Hesh for reminding me to sign the top. Those small details are easy to forget. And Nick, you see I've already spent a lot of time "fretting" this one and haven't even closed the box or started the neck!

So, I believe I've done about all I can do on loosening up the top and we'll just have to wait and see how she sounds.
I want to show my low tech way of prepping the braces for gluing. Not as fine as JJs router table and pattern system, but it works pretty good.


I've got a pattern stick that has my top and back radius profiles on it, 25' and 15'. So I center them on my brace and marked the profile. Since I just joined the back plates my #7 plane and shooting board are still set up on the bench.
Now rather than tediously sand the radius into the braces on my dish, I can easily get them close using a notched push stick to keep my fingers safe.




And very quickly they are close to profile.


Then just a few strokes on the dish and they are ready to go.


All glued up.

Now I tried something a little different this time. I glued down the back braces before gluing down the seam reinforcement. It sure made shaping the braces with the small plane easier, not having the seam reinforcement in the way.

Now big question, brought to my attention by Nehemiah. Why do we have continuous seam reinforcement on the back and yet don't feel it's necessary on the top? There's much more stress on the top yet we don't reinforce it near as much.


After shaping the braces I went ahead and put in the continuous reinforcement for the traditional look. And note the parabolic shaped back braces like all the finest builders use!


And I got my neck block and end blocks made and glued to the sides.


Thanks for tuning in, and I'll be watching!
Joe